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In March, the American Library Association (ALA) announced 4,240 unique book titles were requested to be banned from schools and libraries last year. The latest number of attempted book bans sets a new record, by a 65-percent increase over 2022’s previous highpoint (since the ALA has been tracking book censorship statistics). Nearly half of the books targeted are written by or about people of color and/or on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. Adult ISH hosts Nyge Turner and Dominique “Dom” French kick off season 11 by speaking to Traci Thomas, host of “The Stacks” podcast, and Scott Stuart, author of “My Shadow is Purple,” about how removing access to books can cause harm.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Nyge: Welcome to Adult ISH – produced by YR Media – and brought to you by Radiotopia from PRX.
I’m Nyge Turner.
Today, we’re talking about book bans and why books that are targeted may be more important than concerning.
Scott: I am constantly, constantly surprised by when I go and speak to, like, a classroom of four year olds or five year olds, how early these beliefs are setting in around what boys should do and what boy[s] and what girls should do, and anything that overlaps is, yeah, terrible. So in “How to Be a Real Man” specifically, I talk a lot about how masculinity used to look, you know, back in the olden days and then some fictional days as well, you know. But like, with the Spartans, which are always my favorite thing because I grew up as a young man thinking the Spartans – like, the Greek Spartans – were like, the most hardcore men of all time. You know? And, we somehow always gloss over the fact that they were all having sex with each other, too. You know? So it kind of flies in the face of, like, this ideal of masculinity that we've somehow come up with.
Nyge: That’s Scott Stuart, author of the international best-selling banned book “My Shadow is Purple.”
“My Shadow is Purple” encourages readers to evolve their thinking of gender beyond a binary and to be, quote - “true to yourself.” It also illustrates the importance of respecting other people and the importance of inclusive communities.
We’ll get more on his story after the break.
[MUSIC]
Nyge: Fantasy, mystery, autobiography, young adult, horror, and contemporary romance might sound like your streaming “watch” categories. But, today we’re talking about books, AKA the original “binge.” The stories and characters brought to life through text - or audiobooks if that's how you get down.
But what happens when young people aren’t allowed to read certain books? What happens to those books when they are permanently removed from classrooms and library shelves because some parents want them censored? More importantly, what happens to young people and our society when ideas are erased?
Now, to discuss book banning and its impact on culture, Dom and I spoke with Traci Thomas, our book bestie and host of “The Stacks” podcast.
Traci: I'm Traci Thomas. She/her. Creator and host of the podcast “The Stacks,” which is a podcast all about books. I also host a live literary series in LA called “One For The Books,” and I am a monthly contributor on NPR's “Here and Now” podcast.
Nyge: So, how do you see censorship in literature taking place today?
Traci: Gosh, it's… So, what's so interesting about this topic is that, I think, when it first sort of like, became popular, [censorship] was really focused on like the banning of books. But, I think it's a much bigger issue in politics more broadly. It's not so much about the books, as it is about the information that's in them. And, also the people that are creating them, and the people who have voice and access. And to me, I see it as, with the rise of social media – more people are able to write books, more people are able to publish books, more people are able to, you know, connect with a major publisher and have their books out in the world – which means there's more voices, more seats at the table. And, that's always a threat to people who want us to believe that the white, hetero, cisgender patriarchy is the only way – Christian, is the only way for America to be America. But I, you know, I think we're seeing similar kinds of censorship politically when we look at Israel and Gaza and what's going on there. It's not just the books. And I think, in the beginning I thought maybe it was just about the books, naively. And the more I look at it, and the more I see what's happening, it feels like it's about a lot more than the books.
Dom: You're so right.
Traci: Thank you.
Dom: And you were quoted in NPR saying something that I really loved, which is that you saw, in reference to book banning, a lot of books by Black authors, and people of color talking about race. A lot by Queer authors, particularly in more recent lists targeting Trans and gender-fluid authors. And that, weirdly, you saw a lot of - as you said, a lot of books by and about queer authors, particularly the more recent lists targeting trans and genderfluid authors. I saw a lot of books, weirdly about, like, history – books about things I sort of thought were settled history – which was a little shocking to me. It's weird to be like, 'Let's relitigate Ruby Bridges.’ For anyone who is not familiar, Ruby Bridges, is the first little black girl to go and desegregate a school. She was six years old at the time. And, you know, like that's just history. So the idea of you making that point a second ago and this quote in tandem of talking about this is not just about books, this is about, like a greater historical narrative and what people are trying to do with it. So my question to you is, ‘What do you think are those larger reasons that people are banning books? And, What do you think they are hoping to accomplish when they do that?’
Traci: Dominique, I think you know exactly what I'm going to say because you basically just said it right before
Dom: [Laughing]
Traci: Which is that I think they're trying to control the historical record or like the story of what it means to be America, the story of what it means to be American. And not to, like, really simplify this, but - you know, when you do something wrong to someone and then they're like, “You hit me.” And, they're like, “ouch that hurts.” And then you're like, “I'm sorry.” Well, I sort of feel like the decision about what it means to be American is the not-I'm-saying-”Sorry” part – is the doubling down on like the, “No, I didn't hit you.” And I feel like that's what we're seeing. Like, that's the narrative that I feel like those white men or people in service of white heteropatriarchy, they want us to believe that there are no harms done here. And so anything that draws attention to that, whether that's, you know, the story of Ruby Bridges or a book about slavery, you know, the thing is that I keep hearing from those groups is like, “We don't want ‘our kids…’” - and of course, “our kids” is specifically white kids - “...to feel uncomfortable.” Right? In school. They don't want them to get uncomfortable reading “Beloved.” And so I think that like, again, it's rewriting the narrative, so that the white guys who stole [American Indian] land; who, you know, committed genocide against Native [American] people; who brought Africans to this country to build this country for free – and did incredible harm to those people; the people who want trans children not to be able to have gender-affirming care; or whatever it is; I mean, like I could go on for on and on and on. They don't want to be implicated in the things that they did. So, anything that draws attention to bad behavior is being stricken from the record. And it's also about power and control. And like, ‘We get to tell you what your experience is. We get to tell you it wasn't that bad.” Whatever “it” was. You know? So I think that's a lot of what it's about is, like, who does this country want to believe that it is? And who gets to decide what the historical record is or what the “truth,” quote-unquote, is?
Dom: In reference to that and bringing in what you said earlier about social media and how that plays into censorship. Do you think the tool of banning books in this greater rewriting of historical narratives is a successful tool at this moment in time?
Traci: Oh gosh, I don't know. I don't know. So much of what is successful in politics and policy comes down to - if things are done. In the moment, it feels like there is some success. But then there's also organizations like PEN America, and there are so many libraries, and there's the ALA (American Library Association), and there's so many teachers who are pushing against it. And so, I don't know if it's successful. And I ultimately will judge the success of it based on what continues to happen. I think it's one of those things that, like, if people continue to show up for the meetings and call their representatives and do all those things and push back and fight back, then I think [banning books] will be unsuccessful. But that only goes as far as people are willing to sort of stand up and fight.
On my show, I did an interview with an author named Nathan Thrall, who wrote a book about Palestine that came out on October 3rd. So, it came out right before everything that's going on currently. And I asked him sort of like, you know, ‘what do you think's going to happen? Do you think people are going to forget about this?’ You know, whatever. And he said the people that he is like pushing up against, those people have an incredibly well-organized machine. Every time he writes a piece for the New York Times, they call and they fact-check every little detail, And they made it impossible for his editor at The New York Times to even want to publish another piece, you know, that was in defense of Gaza.
And so, I think it's similar in this case, which is, like the other side, the book-banning side. They have an incredibly well-oiled machine. And it's because they are so organized and they are so committed. So it will be successful if those people are allowed to go unchecked and un-, you know, un-fought-against or pushed up against, you know – like if the rest of us don't show up at the meetings, push back, fight back, then – yes, I think they could be successful in this time, because it is easier to organize with social media and being online. And, you can connect with that other that to those two other people in the whole state of Florida who really feel strongly about “All Boys Aren't Blue” or whatever [book].
Dom: [Laughter]
Nyge: We talked a lot about, about censorship and who it's happening to. I'm curious, what do you feel the effect of it is? Like, how do we see it reflect in, in school right now? And, people who are like, seeking this education, but only receiving a limited amount of information?
Traci: The way that I hear the most about how it is impacted is that I have a large community on “The Stacks” of people who listen to my show, who are either librarians or work in schools. So I hear a little bit about it from them anecdotally. But I think ultimately the question is like, how does it affect the kids? And that I don't know. And, I think that's still kind of yet to be seen.
You know, a thing that I do push against, though, a thing that I have heard over the last few years with all this book banning, is people being like, ‘Oh, they banned, you know, Art Spiegelman’s, “Maus.” And so, everybody bought it. And, you know, it was a number one New York Times bestseller. So like, it doesn't matter because everybody's buying the book.’ But, I think that that view is really naive because the people who are buying Art Spiegelman’s book and putting it back on The New York Times Best Seller list – those aren't the 10-year-old kids who would be reading it in school in their school libraries. Right? Those are people who have access to the internet, access to a credit card, access to a car. They're able to go to the bookstore and buy it. But, if you're 15 and you can't drive, and you don't have your own credit card, and you don't have your own disposable income, and your parents think that Art Spiegelman is awful – how are you going to get that book? You know?
So, I think that, like, I would be really curious to know what kids think. I think there are also some kids who are like, ‘I don't know this book exists, if I never see it at my school library.’ And then I think, there's some kids who care about the news or are interested in the news at 15. That certainly wasn't me. Who like, don't even know that these books are – who do know that these books are being banned and are, like, ‘I want to read that book.’ And maybe they have cool parents or adults or teachers in their lives who will get it for them. But like, I don't think that that is the norm.
Nyge: For the young people listening who are thinking about looking into some of these books. Why do you think it's important to read banned or censored literature?
Traci: Why do I think?
Nyge: Yeah.
Traci: Because, it's the good stuff.
All: [Laughter]
Traci: I mean, they're banning Toni Morrison. I didn't read Toni Morrison until I was an adult. I don't think I would have understood any of it. I still don't understand a lot of it. But like, again, there are smart kids who are way smarter than I am now, let alone how smart I was at like 15, who should be reading that.
I think you should read widely in general. I think that's something that I wish someone maybe had told me when I was younger. But I also think, like making it harder for a kid to find something that they might end up loving is pretty crappy. And I think, like, you know, we talked about like, who's being banned.
And I think, especially for like, kids who are queer, who are genderqueer, a lot of these books didn't exist a long time ago – 50 years ago. So there's so much information, and maybe like, they're being forced to read – I don't know what, “The Great Gatsby,” and they're like, ‘there's nothing here for me.’ And they don't have access to, you know, a book by like – they don't have access to gender… “Gender Queer.” That graphic novel that's so great. That's being banned everywhere. And like, that might be the book that brings them to love reading. You know like, not only does it erase their identity in their experience, but it also erases the potential for like, a young person to find a book that speaks to them and makes them want to keep reading – which is what I am so passionate about – is like, I want kids to be reading whatever makes them want to read!
Dom: Oh, I'm gonna have to crack open my Kindle after that.
Traci: Yes, come on Dominique!
Dom: We talked a lot, and for good reason, about the power of literature and the importance of literature when it comes to young people. Because so much of the banning is around that age group. But, I want to know how you have fostered, and how you encourage other people to foster, their love of literature when they're no longer in school.
Traci: Oh my gosh, this is the best time to read.
School ruins reading.
All: [Laughter]
Traci: I'm sorry. All the teachers — I know you're doing the best you possibly can, but it's — it's an impossible job, English teachers. You know it. I know it. I'm sorry for you. But, when you're out of school, you can read whatever you want. There are so many books. There are so many great books. And like, the thing about when you're reading not for school is – if you don't like it, you just don't finish it. There's no tests. There's no paper. Nobody will know. Nobody will care. You don't even have to tell anybody you're reading a thing. So, that is great.
Also like, I, you know – I always give like adults lots of tips – but like, a thing that I always encourage is, read a book [about] that movie that you're interested in. You know, like a book-to-movie adaptation or book-to-TV adaptation, and read it and then go see the thing. You know? Like, that's like, a fun way to, kind of like, hold yourself accountable. Um, but I do…
You know, people… I live in [Los Angeles] and people always are like, “Nobody reads in LA.” And, I used to believe that for a really long time. But, then I realized that people in LA do read, but they’re reading so that they can option something into a movie or a TV show. Like, they’re reading as a means to this bigger endpoint, but they’re still reading. And, so a lot of pop culture is based on books - like “American Fiction,” that movie is based on a book,
You know, you ask like, ‘what are kids missing out on?’ But I think also, what we're not talking about is, like – What is being taught in schools? Like the more books that are banned, it means, more – like, there's a dwindling amount of books that can be taught. And we're being taught these same, like – it's like, a less diverse pool of books. Right? And that's not great either.
Dom: Yeah. And in a lot of ways, it's further legitimized. If there's a huge epidemic of banning and censorship, whatever gets left over gets put on this pedestal of literary excellence, because it made the cut – which is so dangerous.
Traci: And it leads to like, more monoculture around it too. Like, it's like if everybody's reading the same books in school and it's erasing all the other books, those books become, like you said, they're on a pedestal. They become more powerful. But also it means that other books, like, are never brought up and never talked about, because you don't even know that they might exist.
And, sort of something that I was trying to get at earlier – but I don't think I said it, like, straight up – is that this idea of like, “We don't want ‘our’ kids to be uncomfortable in school.” The “our” is specifically white children. White, straight, cisgender children. Like it… no one has concern for what it's like to be a Black kid when they're reading “[Adventures of Huckleberry] Finn.” Or what it's like to be, you know, a Jewish child when you're reading, you know, “The Striped Pajamas,“ or whatever. I don't know what they read for the Holocaust, but like…
Nyge: Yeah. I read that in school.
Dom: Yeah, they be reading that.
Traci: That's a little before my time, I'm a little old. But like, that book is like, wild. And they read that and like, I, it's just like – I don't know that I need, like, I don't know that this idea of, like — they're masking the word “our” to mean all children, but it actually means a very specific group of children and, like, the parents of the rest of the children are sort of erased as well. Like, in addition to the children being erased, and the books – those parents who fight for their kids, and love their kids, and don't want their kids to feel uncomfortable in school get thrown away. Because “our” kids, the white ones who are straight and cis, like they need to be comfortable. You know? It's just, it's hard to be a kid.
And like, school is a place that's supposed to challenge you. And, you are supposed to read things that make you uncomfortable. And, I'm not suggesting that Black kids shouldn't have to experience “Huck Finn,” necessarily. I've never read it, so I don't know what's in it. So, I don't I don't know. Like, I'm not saying that books that contain racism should be banned either, but I'm saying, like – look, your kids should be uncomfortable in school. Your kids should be learning about things that are icky and feel bad, so they don't do it again. Right? And like, so that they learn how to talk about it and that they get to practice being in a space where a kid says something that's offensive to them, and they learn how to figure out how to navigate that. Or, they learn how to deal with the feelings that come up when someone's like, “Well, your ancestors owned my ancestors.” Like, you need to deal with that. You know?
And I don't know that English class is the right place necessarily. Like, I don't know, but the idea that we should just get rid of all of it so that nobody who's white feels uncomfortable, or nobody who’s straight feels uncomfortable or, you know – like, that feels definitely wrong.
Nyge: Again, that’s NPR contributor Traci Thomas. She is the host and creator of “The Stacks” podcast, which is all about books. You can find Traci’s podcast at The-Stacks-Podcast-dot-Com (https://thestackspodcast.com/) or whatever platform you’re listening to now.
Just ahead, we’re talking about Scott Stuart, whose books include genderqueer characters and challenge gender norms, about having his books banned.
Nyge: Now, we think we need to hear from a writer whose book has actually been banned. So, the next chapter of this episode features Scott Stewart, author of the international-best-selling banned book “My Shadow is Purple.”
Scott: Hey. So my name is Scott Stewart. I am a children's book author. I write primarily empowering stories for young kids. And I spend a lot of time talking about gender stereotypes and how to be a bit-more-joyful parent.
Nyge: Kind of taking a step back here. What do you think literature as a whole has a power to do?
Scott: Well, I mean, what doesn't it have a power to do? Yeah, I am slightly biased being an author. I think you know literature will change the world. But at the same time, it kind of does. You know? I know, just with my books, and that's such a tiny segment. You know, I get emails every single day from parents who are saying, who would tell me that ‘it's really changed the way that their kids have viewed the world and viewed themselves.’ You know, especially, I have two books: “My Shadow is Pink,””My Shadow is Purple,” which are around gender stereotypes and gender as a construct in general. And, so many times, you know, parents will say to me that their child has struggled with something for a really long time. And, you know, this book has given them the acceptance of themselves that they really, really needed. And I don't know about you guys, but like, I don't know if I have even yet accepted myself. You know? And so, to have like, an experience like that, you know, when you're a kid, I think is really fantastic. So literature does an enormous amount.
This is super… This is all very anecdotal, but you know, I remember when I was a kid, I was kind of going through the experience where you know, my, my family had, if you could get a gold medal in shaming people – you know, my family would be, you know, up there, you know on the, on the dais. And, I was constantly taught to hold in my emotions, never express anything. And, at a certain point, I became just generally numb. You know? [Numb] to everything. You know, I didn't really ever feel upset about anything, but I was, I never felt joy about anything. And I was constantly actually asking myself, is this normal? You know, does everybody just not really feel anything? You know, because I've been so shamed and repressed for anything that, any emotion that I was expressing.
And, I was reading this book. I don't know how this book stands up today, you know, because I haven't read it in 35 years. But, you know, it's a book called Martin the Warrior by Brian Jaques. And look, I doubt it's a spoiler this many years after to say that the main character dies in it. And, I remember reading that book at the end of my bed, and, it hit the point where this character dies, and I just started sobbing. I was crying, and crying, and crying, and it just opened up this emotional expression that I had completely closed off for myself. And I just, I remember thinking that's the first time, consciously, that I had cried. You know, as a human, that's not like crying because they're not getting fed or, you know, something like that. Like I'd cried about something, some emotional experience. And that really. And that really changed, you know, my whole existence at that time. And that's just one person. You know? You know, and books do so much for everybody, especially for young kids. They shape our beliefs, they shape our thoughts, they shape our emotions.
Dom: So your book, “My Shadow Is Purple” is so particularly meaningful to me because I am a non-binary person. And it's a book that my 8-year-old cousin brought home from school, and we read together as a family. And, I actually attended the school. that Katie Rinderle, the teacher who was terminated for reading your book, used to teach. And, I remember being a kid and not having a word for what I felt or the lack of belonging I felt as a non-binary person actually came up with a word for it. I told like one person, like in my entire life, but I used to say that I was an “id-jit”, and I was like, I'm not a boy. I'm not a girl. I'm an “idjit”. And I just, I think so much about how a book like yours would have been so meaningful to me had I had it at my cousin’s age who is 8 years old. And it really breaks my heart to think that. Katie was giving people that opportunity to access your literature, your book, this messaging that could really, like blossom people into their sense of selves.
And I wanted to talk to you about that and see – How does it feel for you, as the author? This wonderful, beautiful book that someone or multiple people throughout the US at least have had some sort of disciplinary action put on them for reading to children who are the exact age group that it was intended for.
Scott: You know, it's, firstly, it makes me feel really proud of what I have created. But, it also makes me feel really gross in the way that my books and other books are being portrayed. I remember, and I don't know if this was this particular incident with Katie, because I have gone through this process, you know, these book bans and conversations and things, over the last few years, quite a lot through America. And I remember one of the hearings, my children's picture book was listed as pornography.
Dom: Jesus…
Scott: And I just, I just cannot imagine where you have to be in life to make that leap. You know, it's just such a foreign concept to me. And here in Australia – you know, because I live in Australia, you know – we certainly view things similarly to America, but also quite different. Like, the idea that one parent has so much power over their teacher's career. Like, if I was to complain about something about my teacher, I might get heard, but there's not going to be much [happening] about it. You know? It's the teacher. They're doing their job. Like, if I have an issue with a book that's being read, you know, that's not going to go to a board or anything. They're just going to tell me, “That's the curriculum. Deal with it.” You know? So this idea that, you know, people can just complain about books and have a teacher fired and have these books removed from libraries and things like that. It's, it's – it's just gross. It's just such an outrageous, outrageous use of power.
You've probably seen the conversation around sexualizing our children, you know, and it's funny that this conversation only comes up when it's not a straight, you know, cis couple – you know, on screen or in books. You know, there's a fantastic movie that came out last year, an animated movie called Nimona. It's like, one of the best movies ever. And it features two dudes who are, who are a couple. And like, the backlash and hate that this [movie] got – and it wasn't even, you know, obvious. It wasn't, you know, two Disney characters kissing. It wasn't Beauty and the Beast with a full-on pash at the end. You know? It wasn't like all these many movies where, you know, a man and a woman kiss. It was, they held hands. Yeah. These two men held hands, and it was such a big deal. You know?
It's very, very definitely – it's very obvious that the only problems that “they” have – and I say “they”, in this very broad sense that, you know – people seem to have is when it is people that don't look like them. When they don't have the same race as them, when they don't have the same sexuality as them, the same identity as them. And, you know, [censorship] – these things don't work. Like, if we remove all references of the LGBTQ community from all media – there's still going to be, you know, gay people. There’s still going to be trans people. You know it's… it doesn't work like that. You know? And all we're doing is hurting people, you know, rather than letting everybody live in a way that is true to themselves.
Dom: Bringing it back to your work in particular. Can you list some of the positive responses you've encountered throughout your career?
Scot: Yeah. I'm extraordinarily lucky and thankful to say that there's been tons of, you know, really beautiful, positive responses. Especially around kids who are breaking gender stereotypes. Kids who identify, you know, as part of the LGBTQ community. People who identify as nonbinary. Especially those two of my books, “My Shadow is Pink,” “My Shadow is Purple,” – just an enormous amount of love that has been given. You know, people saying that their kids have never seen themselves in media before and they're, you know, seeing themselves. I'm not going to name the country, you know, but there is a very conservative country that, the government came out and said that they people shouldn't buy or read my books. You know? Because of the messages that they contain. Which is, it's kind of like an achievement, you know.
Dom: Kind of baller. Yeah.
Scott: Even just for government… Like, it’s such a strange thing. And, you know, the – it was so incredible, so incredible to see it. It became a bestseller in that country. And, you know, it's like the bestseller thing is amazing. But, the fact that there's so many people who want to actually have these messages of acceptance, you know, and spread that message of acceptance in the face of, you know, a government saying, you know, he shouldn't he shouldn't do that. That is, that is really cool.
Nyge: That’s Scott Stewart, author of the international best-selling banned book “My Shadow is Purple.” You can find out more about him and his other work and even download some free posters at ScottStuart.co. That’s Scott Stuart—spelled STUART dot CO.
[MUSIC]
Nyge: A massive amount of nerves and uneasiness will stick with me leaving this episode. Another whole generation of young people continues to be raised on literature that primarily represents white, cis perspectives. And the worst part about it – is that it’s intentional. I know this isn’t new. Censorship and the United States have a long history, but there needs to be a shift. A new page needs to be turned.
As more books with long-ignored themes, characters, and lessons - continue to be banned across the country, more of us are losing access to important ideas that could correct some of our past historical mistakes - instead of maintaining a discriminatory status quo.
[MUSIC]
Nyge: Adult ISH is produced by YR Media, a national network of young artists and journalists creating content for this generation.
Our show is produced by Fredia Lucas, Dominique French, and by me: your boy, Nyge Turner.
Our engineer is James Riley, and our audio engineering fellow is Christian Romo.
YR’s director of podcasting is Sam Choo.
YR’s senior director of podcasting and partnerships is Rebecca Martin.
Our interns are Menelik Ransom and Jalen Black.
Original music for this episode created by these young musicians at YR: Christian Romo, Anders Knutstad, Noah Holt, Jacob Armenta, Chaz Whitley, Michael Diaz, Sean Luciano Galarza, and David Lawrence.
Music direction by Oliver “Kuya” Rodriguez and Maya Drexler.
Art and visuals are produced by the youth co-led design team at YR Media: Creative direction by Pedro Vega Jr. Designs by Jess Smolinski, Marjerrie Masicat, and Brigido Bautista. Project management by Eli Arbreton.
Special thanks to Kathy Chaney and Kyra Kyles.
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